Tue 12 Feb 2008
Feed Fish or Teach to Fish?
Posted by ray under Miscellaneous
Once a month I check the analytics for this site. The last time I checked on January 22, we had hit an all time high for visitors. But since then, the numbers have been moving directionally down in a big way!
I couldn’t understand why until I checked the topics. I found that the peak was hit when I was writing on the S&P, basically I was ‘tipping’ the market. Once the series ended, the numbers started to drop and picked up only when I started writing “S&P Intraday”.
So it seems that the majority want a tipping sheet.
Sorry folks, that’s not the reason I write. My outcome is to provide a resource to improve trading results. I don’t see tipping doing that. In fact, in its success, tipping sows the seeds of trader destruction. The reason is tipping focuses on the plan and ignores risk management and winning psychology - elements that are so necessary for investing/trading success. Now I may end up tipping when seeking to illustrate an idea but in that case, the tipping is incidental to the main purpose which is to share my ideas.
I could tell you countless horror stories about the ills of tipping. One will have to suffice.
The latest occurred about two years ago when I was asked to mentor a group of pit traders. The Singapore Exchange had made it clear that the pits would close. This group of very successful order-fillers and a few friends formed a group to trade from their former employer’s home.
Initially they found it tough going but then they came across a spread ‘tipper’ who appeared to ‘be the goods’. He racked up four out of four winners! I am told the room was abuzz with excitement - “the good time would roll again; perhaps bigger and better than ever!” We are talking 6-figure numbers here so you can understand the euphoria. The feeling was: “If only we had really loaded up!”
The next recommendation, they did exactly that. This time the trade hit the stop loss and instead of exiting they added to the losing position. I am told that the market went in their favour after that, so they added even more positions. Well, you can guess the sorry end. By the end of this trade, the group lost all of the profits and some had to quit trading altogether.
Success is a function of having a positive expectancy: (avg%win x win rate) - (avg%loss x loss rate) where:
- avg%win = (profitable results (on a one contract basis)/price initiating the trade)/all winning trades
- win rate = winning trades/all trades.
- avg%loss = (losing results (on a one contract basis)/price initiating the trade)/all losing trades
- loss rate = losing trades/all trades.
By normalizing the result as % of the price initiating a trade, we are able to compare across results, setups, traders etc i.e. by any metric benchmark you’d like to use.
The positive expectancy is a function of a written plan with an edge x effective money management x winning psychology. A trader with a plan but without the other two skills will not survive unless he quits as soon as he hits a hot streak - and that is unlikely. Can you imagine what my room would have said if I had told them to quit after the third win? What would they have said after the fourth? They may have listened after the fifth trade but by then it would have been too late.
Hence the emphasis on this blog is to provide information that will be of long-term benefit to the readers rather than focus on producing short-term gains. And speaking of results….
Results of last night’s trade: I sold S&P March 1321 and covered 1323.5. There was volume at 1321 but after the market poked below 1321, volume dried up, suggesting a rally was to come. I did not go long because my trading timeframe trend is down and I am looking for spots to add to my shorts.



























February 12th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
A great poker blogger (and a top high stakes pro) used to write a similar style to you, very technical, to the point, and with a calming confidence in all conditions. He used to reveal a lot about his plays in his blog. One day, someone wrote a call out comment, asking him why the hell he reveals so many secrets on his blog.
His response:
“Its my understanding that the misapplication of such concepts is far more costly to a player then not knowing the concepts at all. I have not a doubt in my mind that although I’m aiding 10-15% of good players, I’m creating more mistakes for the vast majority who do not understand what I write. In a zero sum game, merely cloning the strategy of the teacher ensures you’re the one who is playing the negative sum game. Adding his thoughts and tweaking your own ideas with what he tells you, thats how one becomes successful.”
February 12th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Hi Colin
Thanks for your comment.
I couldn’t agree more. As I tell the students, once you master the basics, you need to take my material and make it your own. Only then will you experience permanent success.
February 12th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Hi Ray,
I want to assure you that there are people out there (like me) that don’t want tips from you and appreciate your blog for what you intended it to be.
Keep up the good work.
February 12th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Hi Ray,
Thanks for showing how to apply market profile.
February 12th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Hi Ovisan
(I hope I got your name right). Thank your for your kind words. I truly appreciate them
February 12th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Hi Monica
Sure. I am glad you enjoy the Mkt Profile sections. Thanks.
February 12th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
i for one am thankful that you are sharing with us your insights as there are not much good trading mentors to learn how to apply market profile correctly.
February 12th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Thanks Zhao; thank you for taking the time to let me know. Much appreciated.
February 12th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Ray,
It was the fact that you have avoided “tipping” and focused on your own style of analysis (that I had a hard time wrapping my brain around!) that I ended up buying your book! Thanks for standing firm in your convictions in this. I religiously AVOID those styles of blogs as it is, for the very reasons you wrote about.
Also, I have greatly enjoyed your book. I keep it in my overnight bag and stay up late reading it on my layovers.
Jeff
February 12th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Hi Jeff
Thank you for your comments. Glad that you enjoyed the book - I know that for most, it’s a tough read!
February 13th, 2008 at 2:11 am
Ray
Your conclusion on blog traffic is:
I found that the peak was hit when I was writing on the S&P, basically I was ‘tipping’ the market. Once the series ended, the numbers started to drop and picked up only when I started writing “S&P Intraday”.
Apart from your other comments ‘to fish or to teach to fish’ following your blog traffic, it is human behaviour that drives readers to blogs, after all.
The caveat is not for readers to treat your posts as ‘tipping posts’ but rather as one way to trade with probablility of success in one’s favour, using all the tools in one’s own trading kit.
As you mentioned, ‘The positive expectancy is a function of a written plan with an edge x effective money management x winning psychology.’
The rest is application of what we learn to suit one’s own personality to succeed as a trader.
February 13th, 2008 at 2:22 am
Hi Ana
Thanks.
I agree. It’s not my outcome that will drive traders here; that will be determined by whether visitors find value in the blogs.
In fairness to all, I wanted to be clear about my reasons for blogging. Perhaps I’ll insert a mission statement or some such.
What is great is so many took the time to drop a note. It shows there are like-minded traders forming a community of mutual assistance. That made me very happy.
February 14th, 2008 at 2:23 am
Ray, Ray, Ray
My integrity obligation has been nagging me to post on my trading niche. The ‘context’ has arrived to make it poinient.
Mr Steenbarger stated that it takes ten years (yes ten years) to find yor niche in trading. This niche will be your own. Its what you do with expertise, in your timeframe. Plus or minus a few months, he is spot on.
‘Absorb what is useful’ is the translation of Bruce Lee’s fighting style that he fashioned, much to the annoyance of the established martial artists. This blog is part of the ‘useful’ part of information out there in a quagmire of misinformation and confusion in the trading world.
But I diress….
Wendy (long suffering partner) looked at me very suspiciously recently, as I was grasped with an ‘ah ha’ epiphony moment, witt a stupid grin on face, that left her wondering.
I occured to me that my trading niche, was a literal analergy of an aspect of my other career, a flight on a jet.
The flight is planned with a purpose, to go from departure to destination (profit).
Due consideration is given to weather, and fuel is loaded with an appropriate reserve (position size).
Checklists and preperation are carefully completed with discipline and acuracy (sound familiar?)
The appropriate departure time is patiently waited for (trade zones and stalking the trade).
Without undue emotion, the flight is commenced, clinically, and calmly (when it is time, pull the trigger).
Enroute, various obstacles are pitched without warning, although a response to each difficulty is already prepared (CPI, interest rate cuts, news etc). Various mechanical malfunctions are delt with (computors data feeds etc). Usually with redundancy and backup systems.
Weather problems, may require that a small diversion around a storm (unexpected news, like Bernanke knee jerk rate cut)is needed, but on occassions it may be prudent to land at an intermediate airport and ‘wait out’ a typhoon (911), or similar dispurbance.
All the while the fuel reverses are monitored to remain intact, never allowing them to be compromised, ever (stay in the game, don’t ‘blow up’).
I could go on, but the similarities keep amusing me (simple things)….
For those that have labored this far through the post, my trading niche is non directional option trading, with a timeframe of about 3 months on the S&P500.
Speaking of which….”where’s my fish?”
Regards to all
Stuart
February 14th, 2008 at 2:27 am
Mate great analogy!
If I had known that all I had to do to hear from you was to write a blog, I’d have started one long ago! (G).
I am sure your net will soon be filled with fishes. Love to Wendy.