Tue 27 May 2008
POC and Value Area
Posted by ray under Written Plan
Gary asked:
“Hello. Could u advise if the tip and bottom prices of value areas are of more importance than the POC since effectively if we take positions at the previous day POC, we would be subject to whip saws as it rotates ard there?”
The AUDUSD 290-minute chart is a perfect illustration for the answer to this question. Let’s turn to Figure 1.
FIGURE 1 AUDUSD 290-Minutes
In Barros Swing terms, we are waiting for a 5-period line to turn down to complete ‘C’ and confirm a sideways market. But the Market Profile shows a probable bell curve (sideways pattern) where the Value Area is forming . The Boundaries of the Value Area are .9636 to .9582.
Notice the price action at the top and bottom of value. We bounced off .9636 and .9582. Figure 1 was taken this morning Hong Kong time. If you look at a chart at time of writing, you’ll see the market bounced of the two zones about twice during the day. This is the way I’d expect the top and bottom of value to behave.
Now look at the Point Of Control (POC) (the red line), notice how the market trades above and below it. In a congestion market, prices are attracted to a POC like a magnet but the POC itself does not provide support.
On the other hand, where you have a zig-zag or straight line correction, the POC may form support or resistance. In Figure 2, the red line is the POC of an incomplete distribution. Notice that the POC did form support for 5 weeks before the market broke to the 50% retracement of the Initial Price Movement (IPM).
FIGURE 2 GOLD
So, whether or not the POC will provide support or resistance depends on the type of correction.
Gary also asked: “Essentially i am always in a dilemma if i shd enter prices at top of the HVA or low of LVA in anticaption of a breakout from the previous day value area or enter trades at POC of the previous day”.
In reply:
- I said that I would not enter at the POC of the previous day. You now know that this answer assumed a sideways market in progress.
- I also said that the first part of the question would depend on context. In determining context, one tool I have given you is the algorithm that gives you the probability that development has completed (http://tradingsuccess.com/blog/end-of-developement-nature-of-trends-alogorithm-364.html).
In Figure 1, development for the Value Area began at ‘C?’. Apply the alogrithm to determine if formation of the Value Area has completed. As long as it is still incomplete, then we can sell off the top and buy off the bottom of Value. But if formation of the Value Area is complete, then I’d trade the breakout.
Hope this helps Gary and the other readers of this blog.



























May 27th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Thanks so much Ray!! Going to digest what u just said and reading your book in the process. Very indepth and insighful book though, still trying to understand and ingrain its knowledge.
Get well soon!!!
Realli appreciate u answering my question
May 27th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Hi Gary
Thanks.
I may have some great news for NOT readers. I am just seeing if I can arrange the right package with one of virtual conference room providers. Stay tuned!
May 27th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Ray
If I may put it simply:
In Fig 1, when C turns down , confirming a SW market at the PSZ, we can sell there. Again, when D forms around the PBZ as defined in NOT, we can buy there.
In Fig 2, the Red Horizontal Line around $925.00 represents the POC. This will enable us to enter a trade zone to either buy or sell in a simple correction.
Hope I am seeing this correctly from NOT perspectives as my understanding of Market Profile is still very basic.
May 28th, 2008 at 12:03 am
Yes Ana you are right.
May 28th, 2008 at 1:43 am
hello, i am assuming all POC and LVA and HVA are of the previous day right?
Do u use intra day POC , LVA or HVA ?
May 28th, 2008 at 3:26 am
Gary
No, you need to read the development or progress to look at POC, etc as explained in Ray’s post re fig 1 and fig 2, to decide whether to enter as in SW or in simple correction.
I believe this is what is all about.
May 28th, 2008 at 3:44 am
Hi Gary & Ana
Gary it depends om what you are measuring.
If you are talking about the ADUS example, Ana is 100% correct. I was talking about today’s developing Value Area.
If I may offer some advice.
Be clear about what time frame you are trading. Then you will know what higher time frames impact the trader’s time frame i.e. you define the context.
Once you have the context, the critical questions you need to answer to enter and manage a trade will be clear.
BTW - today’s blog will be a replay of an edited version of last night’s ES Camtasia diary. It will help you nderstand what I mean.
May 28th, 2008 at 6:03 am
oooo okok. i go digest what is being said here and read ray book in more detail…
thanks for ur help ana and ray !!!!
May 28th, 2008 at 9:12 am
hi Ray, can i have a shot? in fig 1 because it retraced x/a by more than 78.6% probabilty is high for congestion and sideways market at c, if we could prematurely,perhaps, label d, it should continue away from A boundary as it is less than 78.6% Is this a reasonable assesment based on my understanding,so far,of the book? cheers Baz
May 28th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Ray:
From which point in Figure 1 do you start to count the number of crossings of the POC-line needed for the calculations in your algorithm? From point A (end of the IPM) or from point B (end of the retracement)?
Thank you for clarifying.
May 29th, 2008 at 2:15 am
Hi Baz
Thanks for your comment. I have a small problem.
I am not clear what you mean.
As I see it: ‘C’ has retraced 85.55% i.e. it retraced more than the minimum 78.6% of AB. So, if there is a line turn at C, we have our minimum configuration for a SW market.
(At the time the chart was snaged, the price at which the line would turn down was .9581).
[Note that at the time of the snag, the line had not turned down at ‘C’. If the market broke up above .9653 WITHOUT touching .9581 (i.e. without turning the line down), then ‘C’ would not exit].
I am not sure what you meant by ‘D’.
May 29th, 2008 at 2:16 am
Hi Josez
From end of “A” in the example. We start the count from the end of the IPM.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:06 am
ray i was using the blog as a Baro meter of my level of understanding of the book.(good pun hey) i was refering to B retracing x/a suggesting congestion.I am trying to find the earliest point of interepting all signals.the example of a d i was refering to page 9 fig 1.4 cheers baz
May 29th, 2008 at 6:54 am
Ok Baz. Thanks