Mon 31 Dec 2007
Routines and Habits: A Detour
Posted by ray under Miscellaneous
I was going to write on trading plans, a subject that will probably take a couple of posts. But Ms A. Wang sent me a blog by Dr. Brett Steenbarger, Virtual Trading Groups: Getting to the Next Level, which contained a topic I thought more appropriate to end 2007.
In that blog, Brett writes that traders would benefit by interacting with their peers provided the group consisted of members “sufficiently experienced to offer value to others, ones sufficiently committed to putting time and effort into learning, and–perhaps most of all–ones sufficiently secure to maintain an open kimono and share all the successes, failures, lessons, and letdowns”
The question I’d ask is: who would join and are they the ones that would most benefit from such interaction?
My experience with groups is: those most willing to join the groups are the ones that need it least. Who would join? Usually the classes NLP practitioners call ‘unconsciously competent (the experts) and the consciously, unconsciously competent (the master teachers)’.
What class of traders would benefit most? Two classes:
- Those NLP practitioner’s call ‘consciously incompetent’ (those that know they don’t know and want to do something about it) and
- The ‘consciously competent’ (those that have yet to internalize the habits of success).
But yet it is precisely groups (1) and (2) that either fail to join or fail to persevere with the group.
At least that has been my experience.
There are major benefits from joining such a group - not the tips, you learn little from tips; it’s in the exponential growth of the learning curve that we most benefit. For the novice the benefits lie in:
- The exposure to a probability mindset and the different ways that mindset finds its voice.
- In the fact that there are many ways to make money;
- In the fact that the successful traders will lose money in many trades; but
- Most of all, the novice learns that success lies in keeping a gulf between the Avg$win and Avg$loss.
For the successful trader, the group forces him to challenge his assumptions and heuristics - a challenge that may go unheeded when trading alone. In a sense, the successful trader will benefit less than the novice but he will be the one more likely to join and stay.
In 2008, I’d like to see the idea of virtual trading groups take hold and proliferate. I’d like to see consigned to the rubbish bin (where it belongs), the idea that trading/investing is a profession that has a license to print money. In this part of the world, we have ad after ad telling us how to ‘turn $10k into $1M in 12 months for just 15 minutes a day!’ This unrealistic expectation is probably the most important reason for the dismal rate of success among newbies. Finally, I’d like to see the percentage of successful newbies rise from the current 10% to 20% to 40% and more.
When I started trading over 30 years ago, we did not have the assistance newbies have today -unless you were a local in the pits, you learned by trial and error. Now, it’s very different - today, we traders live in a privileged world where success is there for the taking - we only have to do whatever it takes to succeed. Our success lies entirely in our hands; let’s make 2008 the best year ever!
Happy New Year!



























December 31st, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Ray
For your readers’ easy reference, I have just commented on your post in a vicarious way at TraderFeed:
“Signs of Stock Market Weakness”
1 Comment - Show Original Post
Blogger Anatrader said…
Pardon me for the detour, Brett.
Over in Singapore, we are about to count down , 3 hours to 2008!
Which brings me to another detour :
Quote
I was going to write on trading plans, a subject that will probably take a couple of posts. But Ms A. Wang sent me a blog by Dr. Brett Steenbarger, Virtual Trading Groups: Getting to the Next Level, which contained a topic I thought more appropriate to end 2007.
In that blog, Brett writes that traders would benefit by interacting with their peers provided the group consisted of members “sufficiently experienced to offer value to others, ones sufficiently committed to putting time and effort into learning, and–perhaps most of all–ones sufficiently secure to maintain an open kimono and share all the successes, failures, lessons, and letdowns”
The question I’d ask is: who would join and are they the ones that would most benefit from such interaction? Unquote
More at http://www.tradingsuccess.com/blog/
Cheers and a very happy trading year 2008.
6:54 AM CT
It is very quiet , I mean at blogs, with Sydney one hour to countdown, Singapore/HK 2 hours to 2008, and many readers, especially the young ones, all ready to party and to usher in the New Year.
I will join them all belting out: Auld Lang Syne, but at home!
December 31st, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Hi Ray,
Thanks for the comments on my post. The real question is not “Who would join?” but “Who would be invited?” Very successful hedge funds are, in essence, virtual trading groups. Each portfolio manager manages his/her own capital and makes money based on his/her own performance. Yet they share ideas, research, support, etc–and that teamwork is a major part of what keeps them trading at the funds, despite the fact that most of them have enough capital to trade on their own. Screening participants for skills, motivation, willingness to share, overlaps in trading styles/market–all that is necessary for a successful virtual trading group.
Brett
December 31st, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Hi Brett
Thanks for your comment. I agree with you in the professional arena; certainly that is how I have found it to be.
In the retail sector, though, I found it othewise.
I found that an invitation is not enough. In the retail group that I formed by invitation, those that needed most to participate were the ones that took a back seat.
December 31st, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Hi Ana
Thank you for yur comments and all of your assistance 2007. Keep the comments coming in 2008!
December 31st, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Do you have any suggestions for how to find these groups? I’ve looked online at google/yahoo groups, but the advice and information is rather scattershot.
And more importantly, when one finds a group, how does one distinguish between a good/useful group and a bad group?
December 31st, 2007 at 5:28 pm
Hi Trent
Let’s take the second question first - that’s an excellent one.
It’s question of due diligence, I guess. Ask around, some groups have an excellent rep e.g. Woodies CCI Club. Identify the organiser, see what sort of a reputation he/she has? etc
Finding the group is a harder question to answer. In this part of the world, groups tend to form after seminars and courses. This gives the group a starting point. For example whenever I run a seminar, I host a Googles Group for around 3 months to assist attendees. I suspect, it may be the same in the US. Not sure about Europe.
January 1st, 2008 at 12:44 am
Hi Ray, stumbled onto this site from TraderFeed and very intrigued by your perspective.
Virtual groups may help individual traders, but it is very difficult to uphold cohesion and keep upward pressure on the learning curve without strong leadership, a well-crafted structure, and the commitment of the participants. Perhaps this approach would work well within the context of a small group mentorship. In my non-professional experience, pure cooperative efforts have about as much of a chance for success as new democracies — that is to say, not much.
The group is only as strong as its weakest link — and it usually is not a matter of skill or experience, but of commitment to excellence and a collegial spirit. I’ve wondered why both of my experiences weren’t so positive. I believe it was because of the different ideas each person had about rigor, work ethic, expectations, and of course manners.
I have been investigating Seykota’s concept of the trading tribe — and expect to find a group when I return to the US from a one-year stint in Egypt. In the Trading Tribe, the expectation is that one must commit to having an open kimono. (Brilliant metaphor, by the way!)
I’m not optimistic about group work. In fact, I have written several blog posts about sticking to my guns when it comes to listening to what others have to say about my trading. The problem with this attitude is that I am vulnerable to isolation effects in my decision heuristics. Realizing this, I’m not giving up on the idea that group work could have benefits. Some part of me instinctively knows that finding a good group will enable me to really ramp up my success — which shouldn’t be so hard, since I’m only marginally profitable.
Wish me luck. And thanks for helping us little guys along.
Cheers
January 1st, 2008 at 2:46 am
Hi Jay
Thank you for taking the timeout to share your sentiments. I certainly wish you all the best in all your endeavours.
I share your sentiments in paragraph three.
If you have the time and inclination, please do share your experiences with the Tribe. I’d love to hear about it.
My take on group work - the tools are less important than the insights on the decision-making process and the application of a probability mindset.
Even less important is someone’s view of what a market may or may not do. Given that trading is a probability game, on any one trade, we all have a 50-50 chance of making or losing money.
January 1st, 2008 at 2:50 am
To complete the cross ref to TraderFeed:
Here are :Quote
Brett Steenbarger, Ph.D. has left a new comment on the post “Signs of Stock Market Weakness”:
Hi AnaTrader,
And that, I suspect, is one of the distinguishing elements of professional traders. The ones who do this seriously and who will be invited *don’t* take a back seat. It’s part of what’s enabled them to function as professionals.
Brett
MY SAY:
Anatrader has left a new comment on the post “Signs of Stock Market Weakness”:
True, Brett and yet, from experience, those invited and need to contribute would rather take a back seat as pointed out at:
http://www.tradingsucces.com/blog/
Have a happy and rest on new year today.
Unquote
January 1st, 2008 at 2:54 am
Hi Ana
Thanks for sharing. I totally agree with you and Brett.
January 5th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Hi Ray,
This article is SO spot on! I manage a group of proprietary traders and have tried to put together “virtual communication groups” so that we can communicate with each other and share ideas. Unfortunately, each time I have met with little success. This always appears to be the sequence of events:
1. Start the group - everyone’s excited.
2. First day - people are in the room (using conference software with audio so as not to require reading screens and moving eyes from trading screens), everyone is excited nad numerous comments are made.
3. I start things out bringing up topics. Experienced traders make comments, less experienced ask questions. Day goes well and info is exchanged.
4. Next day, same thing happens. I solicit all traders to do things like call trades, tell what they see in the market, discuss their trades, good or bad. Experienced traders still disseminating info, less experienced many just listening or asking questions with few discussing what they’re doing/seeing.
5. Next day, not many experienced traders log on. It’s quieter with me doing much of the talking to keep the activity up. Fewer people calling trades, telling what they see in the market sharing ideas.
6. Next day, maybe one experienced trader shows up. I’m carrying the room. Inexperienced traders are still asking questions and still not contributing much.
7. Next day, I’m about the only experienced trader. I’m still soliciting other traders in the room to share, but it’s like pulling teeth.
8. I can’t devote my whole time to this to make it beneficial enough to those that are in the room. It needs to be a collaborative effort with all involved contributing what they can. Room closes down. Experiment fails.
The experienced traders weren’t getting anything out of it and didn’t feel like sharing without getting something in return, so they didn’t hang around. The less experienced weren’t contributing, they preferred to listen and didn’t feel confident to discuss their trades. They never even got to actively discussing what they were seeing in the market in terms of stock action, news, etc. I ended up being about the only one providing content.
I have tried this many times over the years that I have been managing traders without any lasting success. If you or your readers have any suggestions on making it work better, I’d love to hear them!
Cash
January 7th, 2008 at 12:00 am
Hi Cash
I sense your disappointment and I empathize. I have had and continue to have similar experiences.
Turning to your question:
My experiences have led me to believe that you need a right mix of newbies and experienced traders.
You want experienced traders possess the same commitment to share, educate and give back to the market - without seeking anything in return. They create an environment where the newbie feels it is safe to contribute and feel when doing so that it is OK ‘not to look good’.
You want newbies who have the same generous spirit of giving back to the market by their openness to learning and sharing.
No easy task and I thank you for all your efforts. I thank you because I see all who seek to give something back as comrades.